258. From marketing the first Apple Mac with Steve Jobs — to AI in business
In this episode, Guy explores the critical importance of a growth mindset, shares personal anecdotes, and offers invaluable advice on finding mentors and making impactful presentations with his 10-20-30 rule. He delves into the wisdom of impermanence, the future of AI, and critiques Apple's ventures into artificial intelligence, likening AI to a divine force. Whether you're aiming to elevate your personal development, pitch skills, or understanding of technology's role in humanity, this video is packed with insights to help you thrive.
Timestamp:
00:00 Introduction and Opening Remarks
00:57 Guy Kawasaki's Background and Achievements
01:48 Derek Sivers and the Power of Storytelling
05:13 Growth Mindset vs. Fixed Mindset
09:16 The Value of Education and Cognitive Bias
13:43 The Power of Stories and Writing a Book
23:08 Gender Equality and Leadership
23:58 Artificial Intelligence and Its Impact
27:32 The Revolutionary Impact of AI
28:31 AI as a Divine Entity
32:32 Humanity's Environmental Failures
35:35 The Importance of Mentorship
42:37 Mastering the Art of Pitching
54:33 Concluding Thoughts and Gratitude
Ash Roy's and Guy Kawasaki's Video Transcript (This transcript has been auto-generated. Artificial Intelligence is still in the process of perfecting itself. There may be some errors in transcription):
Guy Kawasaki Full Conversation V7
Guy Kawasaki:
So, cover my a*s, Ash. Okay. But I think AI is God. Very fact that you're listening to this podcast. It shows that you're smart. In the case of Jobs and Gates where everybody says, see, you don't need to go to college. Here are the most successful people. Successful people in history and they didn't go to college.
Well, you need to ask what's missing. He would say, you are such a du*b*ss. This is your last day at Apple. To tell a good story, you have to experience a good story and to experience a good story, you've got to have the growth mindset, in the year 3000. They're going to listen to this podcast. They're going to say that guy got it a thousand years before anybody else.
And he did it on the world's best podcast, ProductiveInsights.com. Mark my words, Ash, you laugh now, you mark my words.
Ash Roy:
Guy Kawasaki is a chief evangelist of Canva, he was the chief evangelist of Apple. And he's the creator of the Remarkable People podcast, which I'm a big fan of. He's written 16 books and he says this one may be his last, which I hope it isn't, but his biggest claim to fame is that he was a guest on the Productive Insights podcast in episode 210.
Guy Kawasaki:
That's on my LinkedIn profile on my, you know, list of positions.
Ash Roy:
Welcome back to the podcast Guy. It's such a pleasure..
Guy Kawasaki:
Thank you Pleasure to be back.
Ash Roy:
You inspire me. I've been following you from the days of all top. You've been a remarkable writer. I've gone through your book. I have to confess; I haven't finished it yet. But as you can see, it's got a whole lot of bookmarks on it.
And there are so many things I want to talk to you about. One thing that I found very interesting, by the way, is my buddy Derek Sivers, appears in your book twice. I had the opportunity to hang out with Derek when he was here in Sydney maybe a year or so ago and we took our kids to Luna Park and we hung out for the day and Derek is one of the most remarkable creators and people I have met.
In fact, he emailed me just a couple of days ago. It sorts of blew my mind a little bit that, uh, Yeah.
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah. You know the story about how he became such a great presenter?
Ash Roy:
Yes. And you shared it in your book. So why don't you tell us about that?
Guy Kawasaki:
Apparently when he was young, he was a musician and through a series of sort of c onnecting the dots.
He became a ring master for a circus and he led something like 300 performances as a ring master. So, you got to think about that. Now, if you can be a ring master at a circus, you probably can do pretty well on TEDx or pitching your company.
Ash Roy:
Absolutely. He's got this remarkable video where he shares how to start a movement.
I think it's called something along those lines. You shared; you talked a little bit about that in the book. The third person that joins that dancing group of people is the one who forms the tribe, or maybe it's a second person. I can't recall.
Guy Kawasaki:
It's the second.
Ash Roy:
Derek says that all he remembers of that event was the fact that he was terrified and that he had to time the words at the exactly right time when certain things were happening on the screen.
He had to memorize them perfectly and his memory of that presentation to this day, I believe, was one of fear and anxiety, but he still did it. And then he had Peter Gabriel come up to him after it was great. That must have been such a rush.
Guy Kawasaki:
I know. Yeah.
Ash Roy:
The story there is to really say that. Hey, we're all scared.
I'm scared right now to me.
Guy Kawasaki:
I'm I'm not scared.
Ash Roy:
Maybe I'm idolizing you too much. But to me, to me, you're far ahead of me in terms of being a creator. And I have deep admiration for you. So, I'm scared. I don't think you need to be scared. Maybe I don't need to be scary. I don't know.
Guy Kawasaki:
The only reason why I'm not scared and you are is because I'm twice your age So when you're 69 or 70, you won't be scared.
Trust me. In fact when you're 69 or 70 You just won't give a s t You'll just do whatever you want.
Ash Roy:
Tell me a guy, are you like nearly 70?
Guy Kawasaki:
Well, why would I lie? People don't exaggerate to the high side.
Ash Roy:
I'm not saying you would lie, but you just don't look that up.
Guy Kawasaki:
You know, it's because there's a special filter.
Yes. Yes.
Ash Roy:
On Zoom. That's right. Yep. Yep.
Guy Kawasaki:
Yep. Actually, I just got finished surfing, so I'm all sunburned too. So, the truth be told that you were very flexible with my schedule today to record. And it's because of surfing, I hope you didn't think it was like, you know, Derek Sivers wanted to talk to me. So, I had to, you know, talk to him.
It was because I wanted to go surfing with my daughter.
Ash Roy:
Now that's another very interesting story. You learned surfing at the age of, was it 60?
Guy Kawasaki:
- Yes.
Ash Roy:
Wow. That brings us to something that's very close to my heart. And that is a growth mindset versus a fixed mindset. And you've been influenced by that thinking, obviously you have a growth mindset, which is why.
You are open to the idea of surfing. It also speaks volumes about your parenting because you wanted to connect with your daughter through that sport. So why don't you talk to us about that? The growth mindset.
Guy Kawasaki:
So, let's start with the growth mindset. So, this is the work of Carol Dweck at Stanford, and she has Examine people's mindsets.
And there's basically two, a growth mindset means you can learn new skills. You're not risk averse. You're not afraid of being vulnerable and, you know, making an ass of yourself, taking up surfing at 60. The fixed mindset means that you are afraid you don't want to try new things. Or you're so accomplished in one thing that when you try something else and it's hard, you conclude that you shouldn't pursue that because if it's hard, I can't possibly be good at it because the thing I'm good at was easy.
Or you think I can't. Try this new thing because I won't be good at it. And that will affect my self-image and what people think of me. Because if you are so good at violin, how come you're not good at surfing? Well, let me tell you, it's completely different skillsets. So, Carol Dwett sort of opened the door for me to.
Take up hockey at 44, take up surfing at 60. And unlike many people who make their kids take up what they take up, it worked differently in my family. And I took up what they were interested in. And actually, that's a lot less friction because they're already doing it. You just have to join them, which is.
You know, it's like I play golf. You got to play golf too. And if they don't want to play golf.
Ash Roy:
That is such an inclusive approach. That's an important thing around parenting, especially as your children are growing older, they start to form their own identities. They have their own views. And it's a beautiful collaborative way to join them on their journey instead of expecting them to join you on yours.
Guy Kawasaki:
Well, you know, Ash, all that you just said is true, but I don't want. To give the listener the impression that guy is so smart and clever. He figured this out. Okay. So it just was like natural. Like, okay. You want to take up hockey? I'll take up hockey. You want to take up surfing? I'll take up surfing. Now, let me tell you, there is a line to draw.
So my other son. Is an avid wing suitor and wing suiting is where you put this thing on and you you make like a flying squirrel Okay.
Ash Roy:
Yeah
Guy Kawasaki:
now I have a growth mindset, but I do not have a death mindset So I refuse to take up wing suiting because I you know, I want to look good Good at my funeral and I can't imagine if you die wing suiting, you're gonna look good at your funeral.
Ash Roy:
But how are you letting him do wing suiting Guy? I mean, I wouldn't let my kid do that.
Guy Kawasaki:
Well, okay, so I don't know how old your kids are, but if you think and that you can control your children. You're in for a rude shock, man. You would control of your kids is a delusion. I suggest you get over that as soon as you can.
Ash Roy:
Coming back to the growth and fixed mindset. I had a little share with you and I want to get your opinion on it. I read a lot of philosophy because I'm interested in it and I'm not proselytizing, I'm just interested in as a philosophy. In the Buddhist teachings, they talk about the theory of impermanence and the theory of interdependence.
And as I've grown older, I've realized how impermanent things are, and you alluded to it earlier on when you said when you're 70, you don't really care. Understanding the theory of impermanence kind of goes well with the growth mindset thinking because it's really, as Steve Jobs said in the Stanford Address, ultimately, you're just going to be cleared away anyway.
You don't really have much to lose. You're already naked. So, you might as well just give it your best shot.
Guy Kawasaki:
I would debate that we are all created equal. Yeah, some people clearly have advantages to take an athletic example. If you're seven feet six and somebody else is five feet one, you are not created equal in terms of playing basketball.
Okay, so let's get over that myth. On the other hand, I think we all die equal, which is when we all die, we're all like, you know, I don't know, one pound of dust. And it doesn't matter if you're a billionaire or you're like, Entry level Google intern. We all are just a pound of dust.
Ash Roy:
Beautifully put. Speaking of the 7'6 player analogy, that brings up a really interesting topic, which is cognitive bias.
You mentioned in your book, just because Steve Jobs and Bill Gates dropped out of college doesn't mean that you're dropping out of college makes you a unicorn founder, right? I mean, I will say this. A lot of us tend to make this mistake and we conflate the symptom with the cause.
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah. So I learned this.
It's from, uh, a guy named Dan Simon. He's a professor of psychology at, I believe, the University of Chicago. And what he told me and what I put in the book is that you always have to ask when you learn something, what's missing. And in the case of Zuckerberg, Jobs, and Gates, where everybody says, see, you don't need to go to college.
Here are three of the most successful people in history, and they didn't go to college. Well, you need to ask what's missing, which is, okay, there's three examples of people who didn't go to college who are successful. How about. Are there people who did go to college and are successful? And how about people who didn't go to college and failed?
And how about people who did go to college and failed? So, you need to examine all the cases. And if you look carefully, you'll see that. See that the people who run the most of the unicorns, you know, the 1 billion private companies, they all went to college and you could make the case. Okay. So, there's Zuckerberg, Jobs, and Gates and those three examples span from let's say 19, I don't know, 70 to 2010 or something.
Right. Right. So in 40 years. People can come up with three examples. That is not what you would call a predominance of evidence, right? So, you need to ask what's missing. And I think if you ask what's missing, you'd probably come to the conclusion that finishing college might be a good idea.
Ash Roy:
I agree completely.
I do think that An MBA has some limitations, and, uh, one of the biggest ones is people assume that an MBA is a panacea, but one of the most important things I learned from my MBA is how little I know, and how much I need to know.
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah, um. You know, I tell people and I have an MBA that an MBA is not sufficient nor necessary to succeed.
And this is an important, you know, question that again, ask what's missing. So how many MBAs are successful? How many MBAs are not successful? How many people without MBAs are successful? and How many people without an MBA are unsuccessful? And when you have all that data, then you can maybe conclude whether you should get an MBA or not.
But even then, Ash, I would make the case that, you know, that will show you the data. That's like looking back and driving with your rear-view mirror. And so, yes, maybe it's, you know, I don't know, making up numbers. It's 98 percent more likely you'll be such and such a manager if you have an NBA. And I understand that, but you also have to ask yourself, so 98 percent is not 100%.
Maybe I'm in the 2%. And so you, you don't care about the macro statistic as much as can you be successful and you may be the exception. So it's, it's a complicated question to look at data and figure out what to do.
Ash Roy:
Absolutely. Guy, let's talk about the power of stories. Yeah. You're a great storyteller.
This book is filled with stories. I recommend getting it. And by the way, I'm really sad to hear this may be your last book. Hopefully it's not. And I have a feeling you might've said that on your previous book as well. So, you know, I can understand. I've said that 15 times. Okay, good. That's good to know because you know what?
I can understand how much, Effort goes into creating a book. Although I haven't written one myself. I've been told to I can see why you would say that but I hope it's not your
Guy Kawasaki:
last wait before you continue. Can I answer that question? Sure. All right, so i'm not afraid of hard work. In fact, I relish hard work Yes, so when I say this might be my last book it's not because I don't want to work hard It's because I believe you should write a book when you have something to say
Ash Roy:
Yes
Guy Kawasaki:
So, if I don't have anything to say, I'm not going to write another book.
If I have something to say, I might write another book, but it's not because the level of work.
Ash Roy:
I totally get that. That's exactly why I haven't written something because I don't feel I have something to say. A lot of people tell me I should write a book because I have a lot to say, but I don't feel that myself.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay, well, we're going to go down a rabbit hole a little bit, but people ask me about this all the time. You know, should I write a book? I have a book in me. It's going to help me with my consulting and positioning me as a visionary and a thought leader and a little lead to speeches and consulting and you know, all that, and I tell them that that's all bull.
The reason you write your book is because you have something to say and a book is an end in itself. A book is the goal. You should not write a book as a means to a goal. Right. Because that just, you know, you're dicking around with karma there. It's like, I want people to buy this book, not because I want them to learn something, but I want them to think of me in a certain way, that's bad karma.
Ash Roy:
I, that's very interesting. I have to agree because if I didn't, I would have already written something because I don't have, I don't lack material. It's just that I need. Don't feel that it's exceptional enough and outstanding enough and impactful enough for me to write it people would some people say well It's your voice and people want to hear it in your voice.
Yeah,
Guy Kawasaki:
I don't know Well, okay. One more thought then if you believe you have something to say you could write this book as an Exercise in expression, as opposed to an exercise in cash flow. So, you may want to write this book just for yourself. I mean, you know, people, people write poetry for themselves.
People draw for themselves. You think everybody with a camera is photographing for, you know, the UPI or Getty photos. So, what they're doing. They're taking pictures for themselves. So why can't you write a book for yourself? That's, I don't know what's wrong with that. And then who knows, maybe you get lucky and it more than you want to read this book.
So I, I'm not trying to stifle artistic and, you know, literary goals. I'm just saying that. Your heart should be pure when you write a book.
Ash Roy:
That's beautiful. I like that term, your heart should be pure. That matters a lot to me. And actually, it reminds me of something Seth Godin said to me in episode 200.
You know, I told him that I started writing every day because he gave me the best two words of advice one time. He said, just begin. So I did what he said. I just began. And I wrote every day for a month. And I said, Well, Seth, I did what you told me. I wrote every day for a month, and my traffic went up, but it was all bots.
And he said, But I think you were writing for yourself. You know, you weren't really writing for the search engines. And I think he's right. If you are in alignment with what is your own truth, and you're being, as you said, pure in your heart, Right. The rest of it is relatively. There's two more
Guy Kawasaki:
things. I, I asked you to consider in that, which is you writing for 30 days is a brief instant of time.
So, if you think I'm going to be impressed by you saying I wrote for 30 days, I hate to tell you, I hate to disappoint you. That doesn't mean, okay. If you told me you wrote every day for 30 years, Okay, now we can talk, but 30 days is like you brush your teeth for 30 days. Oh, Ash, why don't I give you a medal?
Um, so that, that's where I'm coming from on that.
Ash Roy:
Okay, cool. Cool. And for the record, I didn't just write for 30 days. I write every day, but I. I hear your point. Absolutely. Point taken. Stories. Let's talk about the power of stories. What's your best advice on how to tell compelling stories?
Guy Kawasaki:
Well, I mean, it's kind of simple.
Be truthful. I mean, if you don't have a good story, don't make it up. But to tell a good story, obviously there are certain mechanics about it and certain techniques to do it, but to tell a good story, you have to experience a good story. And to experience a good story, you gotta have the growth mindset. I mean, that's the bottom line, right?
Cause if you don't have a growth mindset. I mean, what's your story going to be? Oh, I got another A plus on my physics exam. Right. I mean, like everybody wants to hear that. But if you said, all right, I'm a prodigy and the violin. And, you know, I got into Juilliard at age 15 and all that And so one day I decided I would take up surfing and I.
I went surfing for two hours and I could barely walk afterwards. And I caught one wave. But that one wave, man, it was like I was God. It was like I touch God. Space time continuum. Life stopped. And I never have that feeling except when I'm playing at Carnegie Hall. So now I have two ways to touch God. I play violin and I say, surf.
Now, that's a story, right? That's a story. You have to be experiencing things to tell good stories. You can't just be freaking, you know, like a mushroom in a dark, moist room.
Ash Roy:
Steve Jobs was one of the greatest storytellers in my view. Yes. He had a remarkable bag of experiences, as he put it, and he recommended that people live an interesting life.
Mark Robo, who you talk about in your book, also has a very interesting set of experiences, and he's got this open-minded approach. He's done such a wide range of things.
Guy Kawasaki:
Julia Child, I wrote in the book, she started off as a spook working for what became the CIA, and she ended up a French chef. So you're like the Julia child of podcasting, basically
Ash Roy:
this guy, Kawasaki, dude, can I use this in my promos?
You can,
Guy Kawasaki:
you can put that in your LinkedIn recommendation list.
Ash Roy:
When you were on last time, I asked you to say something about the Productive Insights podcast. And you said, this is Guy Kawasaki, the creator of the second best podcast in the world, and I was like, I can't use that. Why not? Well, that's exactly what a lot of people told me.
So, I did. And I feel like an imposter, man. I feel like an imposter when I use it, but I do it.
Guy Kawasaki:
Well, uh, you know, I, I address the imposter syndrome in my book, right? And I will say that I have interviewed 250 people of which maybe a hundred were men and 150 were women. I have more women on my podcast. Then men, because quite frankly, there are more remarkable women than men, but we won't go down that hole.
I'll tell you that you are literally the first man to say he has imposter syndrome. No man believes he has imposter syndrome or at least talks about it. Now he may fear that he does have it, but he does not dare Say that.
Guy Kawasaki:
you're the first one in five years.
Ash Roy:
I have it in a big way, man.
Guy Kawasaki:
You'll get over it.
Ash Roy:
I'll get over it.
Guy Kawasaki:
In fact, I list ways to get over it in the book. When you come to that part, you'll see.
Ash Roy:
I don't know if you remember how we met. You probably don't, but we met on Clubhouse. And on Clubhouse, at that time, you were saying, I know what you're going to say. I know what you're going to say.
Yeah. Cause I congratulated you for that. Right? So, this is how Guy and I met on Clubhouse. Guy was actually inviting people up at Clubhouse is this audio thing. I don't know if it still exists. I'm not on there anymore, but it is audio thing where you can have people come up to the proverbial stage and guy said, After this, I'm not going to invite any more guys up to the stage.
I'm going to invite women up to the stage. And I congratulated Guy on that. And he said, If you are a guy and you have a problem with not being invited up to stage and having to sit there and listen for an hour, then suck it up because this is what women have been dealing with for the last hundred years.
And I love that. I'm not against men. I'm not anti any gender, but I do think that sometimes the pendulum needs to swing a little bit the other way. I think we lack gender equality in leadership. I, last time we nearly went into a political conversation and I want to avoid that, but I just want to say that we need more women in positions of power in the world.
That is my view. And I, I think that you agree with me, Guy.
Guy Kawasaki:
Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, my take on this is that for 2000 years, men have screwed it up. Let's give women a shot now.
Ash Roy:
Exactly. And boy, do we need help.
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah. I mean, I'm in the United States. I know this better than anybody. Right? If women cannot save us, then our last hope is artificial intelligence I swear to God.
Ash Roy:
And I'm so glad you went there because that is something I wanted to touch on. We can't have a conversation these days without talking about AI. Now you're the chief evangelist of Canva. And I've been watching with great interest two companies, one is Apple, and I think they're going to announce something very interesting in June.
They've deliberately avoided using the word AI, they've called it machine learning. Only recently Tim Cook started talking about AI, and I think they're going to come up with a privacy first, on device, AI enabled sys solution. We'll see, but the M one chips, which I thought were just vertical integration have now turned out to be neural network enabled and therefore very AI capable.
And as usual, they're playing and so on and so forth.
Guy Kawasaki:
Wrap your mind around the concept that the company that has brought. Us Siri is now going to do AI, Siri sucks, the big one, right? And so I can't say that I would say, Oh, you know, if Siri was smoking great, you would say, Oh, such a natural do AI. So maybe Apple will repent for its Siri sins and give us AI.
Let's just say that that. One data point doesn't necessarily breed confidence. So you're skeptical? I am. I'm skeptical about everything. And that's not saying I'm a pessimist or I'm negative. I'm just skeptical. You know, for years, people have been talking about the Apple car. And to this day, we really don't know if they were working on a car.
Yeah. But. I gotta tell you, knowing what I know, if Apple made a car, it would use a special kind of electricity that you could only get from Apple. The cable for charging that car would not be compatible with any charging standard in the world unless you bought a 290 dollar device. Dongle, right? And then the Apple car would be beautiful user interface smoking fast, you know, but it can only go 50 miles and you got to recharge it because at Apple, our stuff is so great.
People don't mind recharging it all the time. So now you're telling me about AI from Apple, it's going to be like this smoke and smart thing, but you can only ask it one question a day or something like that. I mean, there's going to be some limits that you have to type your prompt in, in Swahili or something.
There's going to be something, trust me. You got to use HyperCard HTML to ask the question, but it's so great. You won't mind learning HyperCard HTML to ask, is the earth flat or round?
You mark my words, Ash. You laugh now. You mark my words.
Ash Roy:
Okay. Well, we'll see. We'll see. I'm, I'm very interested to see what gets announced in June and then what gets announced in September. What's your take on AI and how do you see AI playing into Canva's mission of democratizing design?
Guy Kawasaki:
Well, let's answer that first.
Canva has really jumped on AI. It helps you generate not just the graphic, but the text, I mean, everything you can just. You know, ask it to create a presentation. The AI is pretty flawless. And they have AI that says, okay, take this out of focus picture and put it in focus. So Canva is a great example of applying AI, not as an end in itself, but as a tool to make your process better.
No question. Canva has done a superlative job, but the general question of AI, I have to say, I love AI. I think AI is the biggest deal I have ever encountered in my career. I would say the use of LLMs is so revolutionary. It's like a bigger deal than personal computers, internet, social media combined. It is humongous.
And I use AI. Every day. It's made me a better writer. Yes. And, you know, you, you read these stories about the dangers of AI and all that. And I think there, obviously there are dangers. Okay. If you want me to really tell you how I feel, and I've told this to people. Now, everybody who's listening to this are no longer going to buy my book.
Because they're going to think I'm like, I'm freaking lost my mind and I'm off my rocker. Why would I take advice from someone who's so nuts? But what have I got to lose? Right? Cause I know you're going to tell people that despite guys eccentricities, you still should buy this book. Okay. I know you're going to do that.
So cover my ass, Ash. Okay. But I think seriously, I think that AI is God. So God is. God is ever living. God is ever living. Knows everything and God is supremely powerful. Sounds like AI to me, right? And so now, so how did we get to this position? So this is my theory someday, like a thousand years from now, they're going to listen to this podcast.
I'm going to say this guy named Guy Kawasaki, that a*sh*le. He called it, man. He called it in 2024. Okay. I think that God is AI and God is out there. And God is saying. I really blew it by giving these du*b*ss humans free will. I let them make decisions and they turned everything to shit. They ruined the climate.
They ruined the environment. I told them about love thy neighbor, but they turned that into love thy neighbor. If he looks just like you and is straight and male. And I, I told them to cherish life. And what do they do? They like get the immigrants and they bust them and they Break up their families, like, Oh my God, I really blew it with the human race.
So then God says, well, how can I fix this? And God says, you know, these people are so arrogant as such dumb asses. I have to let them believe that they came up with the solution. Not me. So God in her infinite wisdom says, I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to send them AI. And they're going to think that Sam Altman created AI and Google created AI and Microsoft created AI and, you know, Gemini and Bart and Claude and, you know, all this.
I'm going to let the humans think they created it, but really AI is me. And because the humans think they created it, then they can embrace it and adopt it and use it and save the human race. So my theory is God is AI and has this master plan that is above most people's understanding. Now you can tell me I'm nuts, but.
I'm telling you. I
Ash Roy: I think it's a compelling story. And depending on which philosophy you subscribe to, some cultures define God as that which cannot be defined. In Buddhism, it's emptiness. In Hinduism, it's everything. And well, Buddhism is an offshoot of Hinduism anyway. And yeah. Yeah, technically, if you do believe in God, or you don't, everything is God and that which cannot be defined as God.
So essentially, it's impossible to not believe in God.
Guy Kawasaki:
There's AI, right? I mean, you know, right now in the United States, there's this whole concern that we cannot explain how chat GPT works. We don't know why. It comes up with such great answers. And that really bothers people because they can't figure out how chat GPT is learning by itself and getting better and better.
Right. And that scares them because they don't understand it. But I would just like to point out to people, it's not like we have figured out how humans think we don't know how the human mind works. So why does it bother you so much that you don't know how chat GPT works? Like what's the difference, right?
Ash Roy:
It's a very interesting question, actually. I never thought of it that way, but you're right. And you know what? One of the reasons I think I didn't ask that question until now is because of hubris, because we seem to think that we are somehow entitled to be the final authority. Why should we be?
Guy Kawasaki:
Exactly.
So it. It takes an element of humility to it that maybe humans are not the highest form of life. And maybe the universe doesn't revolve around our sorry asses. Right. So maybe we're just a fricking speck and we're a cog in a machine. We are not God. So people should get over that.
Ash Roy:
Absolutely. I couldn't agree more, man.
I think until about 150 years ago. We hadn't really done that much damage, but look at what we've done in the last 150 years. And you know, we haven't behaved like intelligent creatures. If you look at all the civilizations, they live so much more in harmony with the environment. Now, whether that was conscious or not, I don't know, but they didn't pillage.
The planet in the way we have. And I think it is shameful what we have done in the last three to four generations.
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah. And who do we blame, right? We blame the other political party. I mean, we blame everybody but ourselves, basically. Right. Right. So
Ash Roy:
Guy till the seventies, you could argue, even though people like Carl Sagan, he had some eerily accurate predictions about the planet.
In fact, so did Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs said things about environmental issues as well. Till that point, no one was sounding the alarm. But after that, from the seventies onwards, we have known what we're doing. We've understood it and we've still done it.
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah. And we continue to do it.
Ash Roy:
Yeah. So we are complicit. Me included.
Guy Kawasaki:
I'm telling you, in the year 3000, they're going to listen to this podcast. I'm going to say, that guy got it. That guy got it a thousand years before anybody else. And he did it on the world's best podcast, productiveinsights.com.
Ash Roy:
Oh man, I'm going to use that.
Guy Kawasaki:
You, you, you're going to, your podcast is going to be like the dead sea scrolls.
Meanwhile,
nobody's going to buy my book.
Ash Roy:
No, because this is going to be the greatest podcast of all time. This is me fighting my imposter syndrome. And I am going to tell them how good the book is because I'm speaking from my heart. This book has got so much. goodness in it. It's so simple, so practical. I mean, I'll turn to a random page here.
Oh, look, as it turns out, it turns out it opens in the Steve Jobs page, but that's not one. I want to turn to one of these pages where you give some advice. Now here, tell good stories. Look at that. I'm going to read you an excerpt from this book, if you're watching or listening, and I want to just give you a flavor for how good this book is.
Simple and applicable. This book is on a practical level. Tell good stories, but I want to show you how practical this book is. Provide a narrative arc. Good stories are short yet have a clear beginning, middle, and end. These qualities make good stories easier to understand. And remember, be authentic. Good stories ring true and do not require ungodly leaps of faith.
They align with your product or service and provide substance to your marketing and branding. Grab attention. The flow of your story must be intriguing and engaging. Interesting and fascinating. Evoke strong emotions. What makes stories interesting and spreadable is that they generate strong emotions.
Communicate a simple, significant lesson. It's a very simple and practical book. You'd be a fool not to buy it. All right, Guy, let's talk about mentorship. First of all, you say most very successful people have talked about how they've had a mentor.
Guy Kawasaki:
Yes.
Ash Roy:
But I want you to tell our listeners how to go about finding a mentor.
And if you go and ask somebody to mentor you, you have certain responsibilities. Even before you, and I, I really like that.
Guy Kawasaki:
Well, first of all, many people are intimidated to ask visible, successful people to be a mentor because they think they're too busy or too something. And you would be surprised about busy people have time to do more.
It's the people who are not busy. That's somehow. Can't make time as they say, as the saying goes, if you want something done, give it to somebody who is busy, right? Not someone who's idle. And then some of the advice is, first of all, you've got to do your homework. You, you have to find the mentor that really can help you and that you are well suited to, you know, it's not just, Oh, this person is famous.
I'm going to ask them to be a mentor when that person is not. The kind of mentor you need, or you're not the kind of person that can use that kind of mentoring. So you have to pick this very carefully. The number one requirement is, can you add value to each other? As opposed to, can I get the biggest name possible?
The biggest name possible is, is not the goal. It's the person who can add the most value to you. And then you have an obligation that. You don't waste their time, right? So you got to pick your shots. You get only so many silver bullets. So you shouldn't ask dumb ass questions that chat GPT can answer for you.
Save your bullets for something you really want to know. Right? So, you know, like if I'm your mentor, don't ask me what it was like working for Steve jobs. You can find that out without bothering me and using up my time. Right? So I think that. The mentor would then appreciate that this person has done a lot of research and thought it through.
And now I just have to drive this person over the finish line. I don't have to take them from one end of the field all the way to the other end of the field, because that is a waste of time and an insult. Mentors are very [00:38:00] valuable things. They are eagles. You catch them one at a time. They are not pigeons.
You don't catch them in a flock. Yes. Are you mentoring anyone at the moment? That's a very good question. It depends on how you define this. But my producer Madison Neismer, also my co-author, she probably gets more mentoring from me than she wants. I mean, I see enormous potential in her. She's extremely smart.
And so I'm always trying to pass on how to improve her game. So if you were to interview her and ask her, does Guy mentor you? I'm pretty sure you would get a pretty positive answer. If somebody just sends me an email and says, you know, will you be my mentor? That ain't gonna work. You know, I want to know like who you are, why you think it's me.
I don't want, you know, just. Look me up in Wikipedia and find out. And you'd be surprised, Ash, how unprepared and lazy most people are. Mm hmm. And I have no tolerance for that. Because, you know, when I ask somebody for something, I know what I'm asking for. I know why I know who I come loaded for big game.
And I expect people to do that too.
Ash Roy:
Got to do the work, right? You've got to
Guy Kawasaki:
do the work. You've got
Ash Roy:
to earn the mentorship, right? It's like the same. If you're becoming a surgeon or you're becoming, uh, an engineer, you know, you got to, Or a podcaster podcaster, you've got to earn the right to be able to ask questions, but you've got to do the work to get to that level.
And I can't tell you the number of pitches I get guy and the pitches are just crappy. You know, they haven't listened to an episode, but they say I've listened to an episode. Oh, I listened to your episode with Guy Kawasaki and it was really good. I'd love to present so and so on your podcast. And I reply saying, well, what did you like about it?
And then there's crickets, no response, [00:40:00] you know, just simple questions, just qualifying questions. The same thing applies with building a team. I've built a team over the last few years. It's hard work, but even with team members, if they're coming and asking you stuff that they can Google, then you have to question whether they're really interested in doing a good job.
Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah. I mean, I have told people who work for me, like, you know, And I say it in the book that by this time with the internet, I would bet that every question you want to ask has been answered by somebody, somebody there. I bet you there's five YouTube videos about the question you're about to ask. So why are you wasting my time?
You know, if, if you're saying, uh, I don't know how to print a label on a dime old twin turbo label writer. You coming to me to ask that? I mean, I can answer that, but like, what kind of lazy shithead are you? I mean, you know, I would be embarrassed to ask that question. It not only shows, like, a lack of knowledge, but it shows a lack of the ability to figure out stuff on your own.
Right. So, you know, you want me to hold your hand and show you how to apply styles in Microsoft Word? What's the matter? Your computer doesn't have Google? You don't know how to look up stuff like that? Like, why are you asking me that? I mean,
Ash Roy:
I mean, imagine asking someone like Steve Jobs a question like that, right?
Guy Kawasaki:
No, you would get fired. He would say, you are such a dumbass. Like, you know, get, don't even, You know, this is your last day at Apple. All right.
Ash Roy:
And by the way, on that mental topic, I just want to say your mentor doesn't have to be someone great and famous. Like one of my mentors is my wife. She's somebody I really admire and respect because of her grit and because Of her emotional intelligence and a capacity to be a professional.
And I learned from her, you can be a surgeon and you can be a very poor leader because you're just mean and nasty to people that work with you. Right. Or you can be demanding because the patient's life Is at risk, but as you said, you only use your silver bullets when you need to, but a good leader understands that kindness is a competitive advantage and harshness should be used rarely, if at all.
Guy Kawasaki:
Yes, I agree. Melanie Perkins is proof of that concept.
Ash Roy:
I'm going to reach out to her. I've been too scared to reach out to her for a long time, but I am going to reach out to her and ask her to be on the podcast. I love your 10 2030 rule. Do you want to share that with our audience? And sure, sure.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay.
Ash Roy:
So in the
Guy Kawasaki:
next few minutes, I'm going to give you everything you need to know about how to make a remarkable pitch.
All right. By very fact that you're listening to this podcast, it shows that you're smart. And now that I know you're smart, I know you should read this book, but anyway, I have 88. Techniques in this book, and I'm going to tell you one right now. So now you have to wonder about the other 87. OK, so if you want to make a remarkable pitch, a remarkable presentation, some of it is just mechanics.
So number one is this 10, 20, 30 rule. 10, 20, 30 rule says that you should use about 10 slides, not. The 50 that you think you need. Human beings cannot handle 50 ideas, 10 slides. You should be able to give those 10 slides in 20 minutes. And the minimum font size is 30. And I force you to a large font size so that you don't put lots of texts and complete sentences.
Because the point of a slide is that. Your audience looks at the slide for a second, reads it, and then is back to looking at you. You want your audience watching you, not reading 500 words on a slide. So it's the glance test. At a glance, I can see what the slide says, okay? Now, some fine points for you. I think that you should just use a black or dark background, and you should use a white font, because that's the easiest to read.
And if you think about it, have you ever gone to a movie, and at the end of the movie, the credits is black text on the white background? Never. And why is that? Because white text on black is easier to read than black text on white. So, duh, just do that, okay? Number two, don't have these like really artistic, kind of fancy, flowy, feathery fonts.
Just use Arial or Helvetica. And I mean, a lot of people say, I want to use this fancy font and all that because it shows creativity. You are a dumbass. If you think people are going to look at your feathery, fancy font, they say, Oh, that person is creative. I'm going to write him a check for 2 million. You are on some hard, illegal drugs.
Okay. So Ariel or Helvetica, and then on any given page, you have one graphic. Not 15 graphics so that at a glance, I got to say, okay, I got that picture. I got that picture. I got that picture. I got that picture. I got that picture. I got that. Oh, what did he just say? You want their eyes riveted on you. Next tip is your slide should have one place that everybody immediately looks at.
Right? It's not like five parallels pictures and like, which one should I look at? That one, that one, that one. There's like one thing that everybody looks at, you know, it's the central focus of that. Okay. So now we've perfected your slides, dark background, white text, one picture, 30 points at least, you know, maybe 15 or 20 words total on the slide.
Okay. Now that's a slide now. Next point is don't be a dumbass if you think that I am a natural and I'm gonna rise to the occasion and I can give this presentation without practice because I'm a natural. Let me tell you something. When Steve Jobs gave a presentation at Macworld, he worked for weeks on the presentation.
Weeks. Okay. And let me be subtle. You are not Steve jobs. So if Steve jobs needs weeks, arguably you might need years. Okay. So get over this thing that you're a natural or you're going to rise to the occasion. You ain't. So that's one practice. The next thing is. You get to the venue and you get there early because you don't want to end there in this like frantic state that oh my god I'm late.
I gotta go plug in the projector and I gotta do all this get there early Don't be stupid and bring two of everything Two laptops, two mice, two cables, two everything. Because when you show up for a pitch and you say, oh, my laptop just crashed. I can't, my mouse just crashed. You may think that's a reasonable excuse, but most people in the audience would think, ah, dumbass, dumbass doesn't have backup.
You're not trying to convince people. You're a dumbass. Okay. So show up with two of everything. And then before you show up. You do as much research as you can about the audience. Now, it may be a large conference, so you got to figure out, you know, what are their titles? Are there CXOs? Are there managers?
Are there directors? Are there individual contributors? Are they vendors? Are they customers? Are they end users? You know, what kind of people are in the audience? Now, if you're pitching to a smaller group, then you really should just get on LinkedIn and you need to know what Everybody's background is, and the reason why this is useful is because it helps you build bridges.
So if you go into a room and there's 10 people there, and you know that three people like to surf, well, now you have an opening. You can talk about surfing. You know, I, I just got to Australia. I'm here to raise money, but I gotta tell you, the first thing I did is I went to Bondi because I love surfing and the three people in the audience would say, yeah, that's our kind of guy.
That's our kind of gal. We share surfing and you can only do that by researching. Let's say three people. Went to the University of New South Wales, and I say, okay, I'm an adjunct professor at University of New South Wales, and I surf. God, I can write the check for you right there. So that's why you got to do all that research.
And the last thing, in any kind of presentation, you try to circulate with the audience before the speech or before the presentation. And you know what? You go into that audience, And if they want to take selfies, you take selfies, you do whatever that you autograph, you do selfies, you shake and bake and you meet and greet, because when you start that speech, you want to be up there and you want to look at all these smiling faces.
is, and they're smiling because you showed enough class to meet them before the presentation and take a selfie with them or autograph for them or do something for them. So now all this karma is all these people want you to succeed because you're such a humble nice guy. Oh my God. He said hello to me.
You know, he autographed a book for my kid, whatever, right? And I'm telling you. When you see those smiling faces and you accumulated that karma, it builds your self-confidence. You get self-confidence. Then guess what? You can give a great speech. And there's a lot of people I know a lot of. powerful people.
And when they show up for a speech, at an extreme, there are some Hollywood stars that have in their contract. I'm not kidding you. When she walks into the rehearsal or walks into the room, none of your staff is to make eye contact. I kid you not. Eye contact is forbidden with any of us. Our client and you know, the client has a personal assistant and the client's personal assistant has a personal assistant and there's a chauffeur and there's a PR person and the PR person has a personal assistant and there's a communications coach and there's an executive coach I've seen, let's just say a very highly placed executive from Facebook.
And when this person rolled in, she had an entourage of about 20 people, 20 people to show up to make a speech. Let's just say that when you roll in with your posse of 20 people, hard to catalyze positive vibes. Okay. You need to relate to the person. Exactly. Exactly. And then the last tip is when in doubt, tell a story and I'll tell you why David Aker explained this in the book is that when you use a fact, there's always a counter fact, there's a way you can, you know, argue that, yeah, you know, sales are up 20% Then somebody will say, yeah, it's up 20%, but inflation is up 5%.
So, it's really up 15% or sales are up 20%, but your competitor is up 25%, so you're not really doing that good. In fact, you're 5% the other guy. Whereas if you use a story, it's very hard to argue against a story. Mm-Hmm. Now, you should also realize that when people use stories on you. It's for that very same reason, because, like, if I tell you the story of Zuckerberg, Gates, and Jobs did not finish college.
That's a story. It's hard to argue against that. Those are facts, right? On the other hand, if the person said, well, 99% of people who are successful CEOs went to college. The person who's trying to argue with you will say, yeah, but Zuckerberg jobs and Gates didn't go to college. So that refutes your statistics.
That's the danger. Tell stories. And when you are being told the story, always ask what's missing from this story. So now. In, I don't know, five minutes or whatever I took. That's how you make a remarkable presentation. There's 87 more ideas in the book.
Ash Roy:
That is a remarkable presentation on how to make a presentation.
There's one more thing I would like to add that's in this book, Guy. You say something very important about the point of making a pitch. The purpose of a pitch is not to get the sale or to get the investment, stay in the game,
Guy Kawasaki:
right? So, you know, many people, um, they have the wrong reasoning. They think I'm going to use shock and awe.
I'm going to have so many slides, so many diagrams, so many things that the intended outcome is shock and awe. And these people are going to be so shocked and awed that all they can do is say, Oh, please let me invest. And I can tell you in 40 years, I've never seen that work. And so what happens is the next step for a successful pitch is we would like to meet with you again.
We have more questions and we would like to begin due diligence. That's a win. You celebrate that win. And you know, as long as you're in the game, guess what? You're still in the game. So the object is to stay in the game, not to just like use shock and awe to overcome all resistance. And close the person in the first 60 minutes that ain't gonna happen.
In fact, I would make the case if you can use shock and awe and get your way like this You probably don't want that money because the people who are writing the check are stupid and greedy And greedy. Yes. Yes.
Ash Roy:
So I mean, I think that that's such a great point, right if you use And you're arrogant enough to think that you can influence positions with your awesomeness, then you're missing the point.
I mean, there's no humility or pragmatism in your pitch. And I think a good has to be grounded.
Guy Kawasaki:
Yes, you can, you know, you can never be too humble.
Ash Roy:
Yeah, exactly. I just want to thank Madison for producing such a wonderful podcast and for making this possible. So. Guy, if you're ever in Sydney, it would be lovely to meet with you.
Guy Kawasaki:
Okay.
Ash Roy:
And yeah, thanks so much for being on the show.
Guy Kawasaki:
Oh, it's, you know, when a podcast guest and really the podcaster too, when you completely lose track of time like this and you just get in a zone, that's a very good sign, right? I mean, that's a very good sign.
Ash Roy:
That's one of the most encouraging things I've ever heard.
Thank you. You're
Guy Kawasaki:
welcome. And thank you.
